The Reality

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[VC] is the undisputed master of all musical styles.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who has said this?! I don't know of anyone specifically who has made this broad of a statement in here...I could be worng...unless they were one of the "younger" guys...& that's not an off to those guys. Some people just haven't learned exactly what is meant by jazz historically. That's no boig deal. They will. If they don't, eh, so what. They're not ready yet. Try to inform them in a POSITIVE way, I always say...not by showing how enlightened i seem to be, & you're not. This is the sign of a true, good teacher, becasue if you;'re going to comment on the subject, why not inform instead of divide from out of the gate?

& it's not theoretical at all. There are def facts which have been discussed [beaten] here.

"The question cannot be dismissed as mere 'semantics'" - it never was. Perhaps you musunderstood my intent, & perhaps took that out of context of the whole premise.

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"master" of the idiom

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, WHO ever said this?!

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I were to give a list of one hundred drummers to listen to in order to learn how to play in the bop/post-bop musical idioms, Vinnie wouldn't be on the list.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mine, neither.

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quasi-religious commitment to Vinnie's greatness could motivate the statement that Vinnie "could" play in a certain way

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Huh?
I know what you mean, but still, why bring the notion of religion into this? What's the inportance of presuming that someone is denoting VC a "demi-god" or something, making them so-called religious [in a down-the-nose tone]? This is getting way out of hand, & weirder by the second.

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thread describing left-hand comping as "random accents

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As in your thought process, I think the term random is at issue here. Not meaning to be presumptuous, but maybe you took it the wrong way, or perhaps there's a better descriptn or wording. I didn't take that as in what some deem "random" as in "not understood or deliberated" or simply, scattered without form or context or thought or study; as much as meaning dispersed throughout according to schooled intent...but that's just me. [img]cool.gif[/img]

Again, What was i saying a minute ago about getting outta here?!...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 05:18 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

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[VC] is the undisputed master of all musical styles

This get's said way too often in here in numerous threads.
Jonathon, great post man.

Funny, I get that from you certain guys about HASS all the time. Double-standard, perhaps?

Now Hass is indeed a great player, but he's no all-around best either, IMO. That means,. EVERY style authentically & ethnically correct.

I'm going to say that you guys only show up in here to talk up Hass, & come to the prosecution of VC, or to show how some "youngsters" or guys who don't get it yet, & that's the only time we see you guys in here. The ONLY times. And that's simple truth & fact. And rarely otherwise...& with all the "HA's!," & condescension & such. Give us a break. Sometimes the rest of us get as irritated by only the Hass talk & "displays of knowledge over the punks' heads" as y'all do the Vince talk. Real enough for ya? Hey, Randy, weigh in here...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 05:30 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

Why is that a double standard? Some drummers have worked on being able to cross over without faking it.
Steve is a great young drummer with years ahead of him, and he's not a drumming god quite yet in my opinion. But he does speak the language of jazz, latin, and contemporary styles, as if he only plays one. Sometimes to the point of where I feel his identity gets lost. Let's not start on him again. He's a young cat. Not a master with 30 some years experience.

That's not true. I read this board often, and when I think I have nothing to say, I don't post. I have started threads on other topics and commented often on other topics.
Hass isn't the only one, he's just fairly new to me. Erskine also crosses the board with styles authentically in my opinion. He's rooted in many styles. Brian Blade, and so on.

I haven't been around to defend my point, but I think others have done a fine job. Because Vince doesn't play the same old, tired over-the-bar sixteenth note fills like Max or volcano tom fills like Art doesn't mean he can't play jazz. Art evolves. People have different voices. Jazz does NOT have rules, and that is one of my pet peeves. I don't have to tune my drums any certain way to play jazz, and I don't have to play the stock fills to do so either. Its about swing, interaction, and improvisation.

Look, the issue here is TONE of post. Most of the staements made are sound, by both sides [i said, most].

Sometimes these postings would make for awful teachers, i think. Issues, & disgust show themselves under the surface. So some greener guys say that about Vince. Why shouldn't we be the older & wiser & not let this bother us?

The issue of what is jazz is a well-taken one. It doesn't detract from VC's ability, but I personally have certaily never said he was master of all, or demigod or anything like that. But what he does, furget about it. None of you guys could stand a chance sitting next to him in his element. Trad jazz or not. None of you. Or you'd be doing his sessions, tours, the Chick or Zappa gig, or sitting next to he, Gadd, & Weck at the BRMSC2. That's not religion, that's just fact.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 05:38 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

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Damn, you guys must have a fetish with him

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ha ha, that's very funny, coming from you of all folks... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

You went on his board and "tattled" on us? Come on, man.

Listen to what he says. He is a great jazz drummer, and doesn't need to sound like everyone else. That's how art stays fresh and interesting. Not with a bunch of imitators playing the same brush beats and dead sticks and buzz stroke fills. Come on.

Who do you think i was bashing? Hass? Certainly not. Para? NO. Just habdling, or tone, of threds...I wasn't bashing anyone.

Even HASS said it best, so what's the beef? Why the incessant stomping of credo?? Hass:

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Vinnie Colaiuta IS a great jazz drummer. He doesn't come out of the jazz tradition, but there are serious jazz elements to his playing via Tony Williams. You can't expect everyone to be Bill Stewart and Brian Blade, open up a bit. Vinnie doesn't do those types of jazz gigs anyway. The ones he does are very modern and are fused with the rock approach. i.e chick, pasqua, andy laverne. big drum. He always sounds amazing.
I know that when I teach and even when I'm asked questions on this board, I have serious criteria for jazz drummers. And that may be where you're getting this from. Vinnie doesn't exactly play that way. But that's my way, not his. That's how I approach every style. From the bottom up.

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